Who is really surprised ?
Hidden facts from the Brazilian side, on purpose, is what I have been telling all along !
Diverting the population attention by finger pointing others was done on purpose, since day 2 or 3 after the tragedy, to cover up the internal problems and errors.
Far more is still being hidden.
There are still far too many contradictions in the sequences of accusations, contradictions, disclosures, new contradictions themselves contradicted by other contradictions and then by other new disclosures.

No doubt justice will prevail and that all the truth(s) will be discovered and revealed !

And contrary to the article in this site of David Lerer, ex house representative, accusing the U.S. of arrogance, the arrogance was and still is from the Brazilian side with their public accusations from the highest government levels against the US pilots, well before the investigations reports !

Ch.c, while I am somewhat in agreement with you, the tone of your posts doesn't help anyone. There is a lot of emotion and anger and what needs to happen is to allow things to settle. I think time will heal all wounds. Stirring the pot further is counter productive.

This is an interesting development but I still believe Pires is the man who needs to accept responsibility. Politicians are simply not cut out to admit any wrong doing. Imagine in the US if President Clinton had simply admitted the truth to having an affair or if last month Secretary Rumsfeld had admitted and accepted responsibility for fouling up the war. It's the same everywhere and Brazilian politicians will point fingers as long as they can get away with it. Still, this is a good start.

Once the pilots are released, Americans will stop giving a damn what Brazil does with their own government.

Brazil and America working together will set the truths free.

Happy Tankskilling...

"No doubt justice will prevail and that all the truth(s) will be discovered and revealed !"
Suddenly he (ch.c.) has no doubt that justice will prevail ?
Ch. c you are a pathetic demagogue but laughable.
You have year(s) worth of comments stating the ALL Brazilians are corrupt and incapable of self-governing. With outrageous racial remarks to ALL Brazilians that are too many to copy and past here for everyone to see. (Brazzil Brazzil seach ch.c)
The Brazilian government is not succumbing to your racial motivated articles, you egocentric idiot. This is the Brazilian government determined to give a full explanation to its own people and to the 154 souls or do you think that Brazilians are the only people in the world not capable of self-righteousness?
Why can’t the Brazilians also say ” there’s nothing wrong with Brazil that can’t be corrected by what is right with Brazil”.
On a personal note to you…”I am closing in”.

Shame! Waldir Pires accused the American pilots on the legacy of doing "stunts" and causing the accident. He pointed fingers since day one. He should have resigned long ago when became clear that air traffic in Brazil is a mess. Flight Data recorder analysis proved that the Legacy was flying straight and level. On today's (25/nov) Folha De S. Paulo we can read that an error by ATC in Brasilia started the whole chain of events that lead to the mid-air collision. To readers of Brazzil.com that are not born in Brazil or do not live here, this crisis has given you an example of the hell we have to endure here with our officials and politicians. It was always like this and I am afraid it will not change.

"Time will heal all wounds"? In this case it will be, "Time wounds all heels". Go back and find out who was responsible for the order to remove the High Frequency radios from airliners flying in Brazil, which they all used to have and which are not line of sight but could be heard all over the Amazon Basin, for the sake of modernizing, and trying to operate with VHF radios only.

"Digladiated" would mean that the principals involved fought one on one with swords...obviously a euphanism.

But I have said this many times before( I do live in Brazil) that we are faced with nitwits and workers every day that don't have a clue what they are doing... no training and if they were given training , but failed, they still get the job.Ask a Brazilian a question and if they don't have the answer, they just make up one.Just look at the number of workers in a fast food restaurant compared to the developed countries and you can see that it takes twice as many to put up some burgers and fries! And the fries always go up first and of course are cold by the time you get the rest of the tray. They are taught to put the hot food up last and the drinks first, but they won't listen and the managers are to busy chasing the young ass around the kitchen. The beat goes on!
I can't tell you how many times I have ridden in the flight deck across the Amazon and the pilots comment that they are on their own with no radio communication with any one, no even there alternate airports if having a problem. At the moment it is safer to take an intercity sleeper coach overnight then risk being knocked out the sky by dimwits. We have an expression here.".sleeping on the mayonaise" and "all gone to pizza" How true it is!!!

I know this expression here in são paulo too. Viajando na maionese.

International Air Traffic Control System Quality

Years ago when I flew in the military reserves, one of our aviators flew for the FAA in his daytime job. His airplane was a DC-3, so it has been a while. The plane was equipped with extensive instrumentation monitored by onboard technicians.

One of the things they did was make repeated ILS approaches at various airports to verify signal accuracy. He and his crew checked the various electronic navigation and communication facilities for precision after maintenance and on a regular basis throughout their region. Other crews did this in other regions around the United States. With this and other constant testing, the FAA knew continually if there were deficiencies in any part of the national system and posted notices to airman (NOTAMS) so all would know of them and work around them until they were corrected. Surely they still do this.

Most likely similar flight crews do this in most if not all of the nations of the world. Some may be contractors if a nation does not have their own government activities for it. All take their work very seriously.

I hope Brazil does this, too. Surely Brazil has government organizations that know with great accuracy any deficiencies that exist and have plans for correcting them. These occur even in a perfect system as components fail. Any electronic system needs constant monitoring and evaluation. The laws of physics and finance determine if there are sufficient line-of-sight ground communication stations along the route.

It seems vital that along with all the present confusion in Brazil this will be implemented if it does not already exist. As Brazil is such a large and important country, I expected that all of the steps to provide a first class ATC system were in place. If not, I certainly hope this tragedy brings the necessary attention to do so.

The information that now has come to light surely is sufficient to remove any doubt that the crew of the Legacy 600 was performing its in flight duties with all the same skill and professionalism as the crew of the Gol 737. The damage alone shows that the two planes were flying straight at each other in steady level flight. Holding the crew of the Legacy 600 surely reflects poorly and unfairly on Brazil when it is so clear they were doing their jobs with the same precision as the unfortunate Brazilian airline crew. Yes, it is time to release Joe and Jan and send them home. It should be clear to all who do not have an ax to grind.

Best wishes to our neighbors to the South.

RM

RM, this not not the way it is here. There can be glaring holes in the ATC structure and nothing will happen to correct it. The goverment may have plans to correct but that means that there would only be a 30% chance that it would or will be done. it is still the wild west were no one will be accountable for anything... in goverment.. business, education, reduction of crime and the list goes on.If the Americans arfe hoping for justice I have my doubts. The investigation is so polluted by now to get to the truth would be a miracle, to say the least.

Wake up and smell the coffee. I am writing my comments from Sao Paulo so of course the expression "Viajando na maionese". is known here in Sao Paulo.Is this all you can contibute to the debate? Are you one of the dimwits I was refering too!

that's it Stephen, but the good part is that life is pretty easy here, if you don't get totally nuts heheheheh

Yes NOTAMS are posted from all countries around the world. It depends on the country with how that is done, whether by flight checks, ground checks, etc. As I have posted on a different thread, it is been at least 8 years since I flew in Brazil and at that time we knew, as did everyone else, that holes existed in the communications network, especially in the Amazon. We were briefed on this and did our research and found out where the areas were and what to expect. We knew that we had to keep a close listening watch on the frequencies and if time passed without hearing anything, to check with the center. It has finally been admitted that these holes still exist and have not been corrected. Ultimately, it falls on the pilots; after all it’s their responsibility to find, read and understand all pertinent NOTAMS. Not only that, but they must familiarize themselves with the differences between the host country and what they are familiar with in the US. Furthermore, it was the responsibility of excel to make sure that the pilots have current, adequate and appropriate training before they depart. I do not believe this happened in this instance.

A new point that I want to make is about the change in altitude that was supposed to happen at BRS. While English is the common language in aviation, for almost the entire world it’s a second language. In many parts of the world it’s difficult to understand because of accents, communication equipment, etc. I have read over almost everything that has been written and it boils down to the controllers saying that “maintain altitude” (this was before reaching BRS {Brasília}, it was after BRS that the Legacy according to the flight plan should have descended to 36000) they meant 37000 until BRS and then the flight plan and the Legacy crew interpreting that has a clearance to maintain 37000 for the rest of the flight. Also, the initial clearance given by the ground controller seems to be an altitude of 37000. This goes to appropriate training too. Many additional questions should have been asked to assure that everyone was on the right page. The language difference has been brought up. Full situational awareness would have required questions to be asked by the Legacy crew to CINDACTA 1 about the accuracy of maintaining 37000 going in the wrong direction. This is an oddity now that RVSM is play around the world and should have set off alarm bells and had questions being asked until fully clear.

While the NTSB transcript and the flight data recorders show that no aerobatics or wild maneuvers were done by the Legacy crew, it is my opinion that there is a serious question with regard to the time frame on communication with ATC, or the lack thereof. As I stated on another thread:

“However, reading the NTSB report the glaring thing that comes to my attention is the length of time before any communication was attempted by the Legacy crew. There was 35 minutes with no contact before CINDACTA 1 tried to repeatedly contact the Legacy. Depending on the amount of area of control by CINDACTA 1 (or any center in any country) the amount of traffic, or even at times the winds at altitude, there will be no communication unless there is a frequency change, a change of altitude or request. That time frame does not bother me too much as it is fairly easily explained. BUT, any knowledgeable professional pilot would not let that much time go by without hearing anything from center and/or calling to make sure they did not miss a frequency change, to determine that the radios either on the plane or those of the ground controller were still working, etc. The Legacy crew did not attempt to contact the center for OVER AN HOUR (3:51pm to 4:48, a direct quote from the NTSB report.) This is a lack of training, no training or just lack of knowledge. It is also a huge loss of situational awareness. Lack of training, knowledge or situational awareness is completely acceptable for a professional pilot. This falls at the feet of excel and therefore they should be held accountable for it.”

I also have never subscribed that the pilots be held and continue to be held. To my knowledge it is just about unprecedented. However, they and their employer, excel, must be held accountable and responsible for their actions and lack of training, just as any responsible ATC must also be held accountable. To me one of the big factors that is not being addressed is the lack of training.

Hi Ralgh

"Lack of training, knowledge or situational awareness is completely acceptable for a professional pilot. " This is a typo, a big mistake which I accept responsibility for. The sentence should have read

Lack of training, knowledge or situational awareness is completly UNACCEPTABLE for a professional pilot. Sorry for any confusion.

Bravo to Lula for listening to the little people ( the controllers ). Most of the time they have to take the blame.

Do you guys think that the next one to be axed would be Mr.Waldir Pires?.Now that the Brazilian Vice Prez (Ex Defense Minster too) is back from U.S., after a succesful health treatment, he can easily take over from Mr.Pires.To be honest, not many Brazilians are able to understand what Mr.Pires is saying about the whole tragedy.

Waldir Pires must go. He has zero knoledge on defense and aviation. The reasons for him to be at such position are: 1 - Pres. Lula likes him. 2-Pires was a close collaborator with Pres. Goulart, deposed in 1964 by a Coup D'Etat led by the military. Pires went into exile and hates the armed forces. He is a typical leftist Latin-American that still regards Cuba as an example for the continent. Other people involved in managing civil aviation in Brazil have no background in the industry too. Mr. Zuanazzi, Head of the civil aviation agency (ANAC) is completely alien to aviation. He is just another member or symphatizer of PT (Lula's party) that was put at an important position without merits for such.

Explaining better the second "reason" that makes Waldir Pires defense minister: He is now defense minister as a "provocation" to the military. Lula put a man that the military sent to exile back in 1964 to be the defense minister and to control the armed forces. Times changed here but not all wounds were healed.
Now, on a different topic, there is a movement to revoke the amnesty law and put former military commanders on trial. Retired army generals, such as former minister Jarbas Passarinho, strongly reacted against any hint of modification of our amnesty laws. They are listened by younger guys still on duty.
Amazing, but i am watching my country going back in time!!!

I like this chap Marcelo.He has the whole drill down pat. I think that to revoke the amnesty law should be done. It would be the height of accountablity for the country and maybe open old wounds but also provide closure for many. If the country is as strong as Lula says it is then it will survive. re about Realgivp comments. The Gol flight plan was to fly at 43,000 ft but the pilots listened to a request from ATC to change that to 37,000. So something is very rotten here folks.

Hi, realgivp,

It is nice to see some calm reasoned discussion. I have not seen any reference to position reports. Whe I flew slower airplanes, a position report was required when passing a VOR or similar navigation aid. If they were about a humdred miles apart that would be about half an hour between reports at 200 mph. Surely line-of-sight navigation aids are not 250 miles apart for half hour position reporting at 500 miles per hour. That's out of my league and there must be many changes in the system since I flew. You get the idea, though. There should be a reason to talk to ATC at regular intervals of about 20 minutes, even if just to confirm communication..

I am sure most all of the ATC controllers want to do a good job and staff shortages and long hours limit their doing so safely. There has been much said about deficiencies in the Brazil system. Does anyone know or have opinions about other Latin American ATCs? How does Brazil compare to Mexico, Argentina, Chile and others? I have not seen anything about them. There have been a few responses that say Brazil just does not do things to make things better. Seems like it just takes one strong competent leader in the right place to make changes. The control staff sounds like they would rally around someone like that.

There are 18,000 in Sao Paulo doing it right for they are turning out some wonderful Embraer airplanes! All Brazilians should be proud of them! I have riden on them several times going to see my granddaughter. I enjoy them.

Sure hope things get better for all soon!!

RM

Does anyone know of a place online where we can see a chart of airways and navigation aids in Brazil? In the US, Jeppeson Charts show similar features. Maybe Jeppeson has them at their website. I haven't looked. All of this would be easier to understand with charts. Maybe they publish online charts of whole nations without charge and reserve the actual flight charts for sale.

RM

Well, the country may be that strong as Lula says. His failed attempts to control press may count as a proof that we moved a little further. Revoking the amnesty law of 1979 is an error. Remember that the Amnesty was to both sides. Not only the military commited crimes. Going back to the past will benefit nobody. Instead of justice we would have vengeance. Maybe it would be better to open all files from that period and then we would know if some "heros" of the left were real.
As for the aircharts you may try jeppensen. Brazilian air force has a department (DEPV) that publishes air charts. As far as I remember the closest airfield to the collision area is the Cachimbo Air force Base. The base has a NDB and VOR as navigation aids.

Brasilia to Manaus is about 1035 nautical miles. At nm 580 you´ve got Cachimbo. At nm 780, Jacareacanga with VOR/DME, and a NDB. That´s about it.

I'm certainly glad to read that it's not just us here in the states that are frustrated about how well the Brazilian military seems to have diverted the discussion about the September midair. Joe Sharkey and I have been feeling like we're carrying on a bit of a small fight here in the U.S., at least when it comes to raising people's awareness of the fact that these two pilots are still stuck in Brazil.

Joe was on board the Legacy when the collision took place and wrote about it again in last week's NY Times. http://travel2.nytimes.com/200...1road.html

Hope that link worked.

I've been writing about it at my blog as well and managed to get five minutes on the Fox News Network across the U.S. on Thursday, but as someone mentioned earlier, there are very few people in America outside of the aviation industry who have any idea these men are still there.

Like you in Brazil, we here in the U.S. are looking at the situation in Iraq and better understand what it's like to have people try and keep our attention focused on something else.

I would really like to be able to share some of your advice with our readers. There must be more we can try to get these two guys home? Personally, I think keeping the story in the media will be more successful than simple letter writing to our government. Tell me what you think.

And keep that info coming. We want to hear what you have to say.

Rob Mark
www.jetwhine.com

A person on another board posted this letter a short while back that claims to be from a person who understands the Brazilian legal system. I make no such claim and found it eye opening. There is no name on it because the person who sent had not asked for permission to dhare the letter.

My question to any of you is whether this note seems to ring true in this case and again, whether you believe this writer's suggestions seem to make sense.

Thanks,

Rob Mark
http://www.jetwhine.com
******************************************************* *****
The US pilots situation in Brazil is really very unfortunate.

They've become entangled in a maze of political interests, media manipulation, public hysteria and nationwide consternation for the death of 154 people.

First of all it is very important to clarify that any air accident in Brazil may be subject of 2 independent investigations. The first - and most important - is carried out by the Air Accident Prevention and Investigation National Centre. It is an Air Force branch, staffed with pilots that have dedicated several years to the aviation safety activity

This investigation is totally carried out under (ICAO) Annex 13 principles, and the reports produced won't aim at producing evidences against anyone.

According to the usual procedure in such investigations, the US pilots have been heard and have gone through a medical examination - all Brazilian pilots are subject to the same procedures after an accident.

In the present case, and because a US aircraft was involved, the NTSB was invited to participate - alongside with representatives of Embraer, Boeing and Honeywell. Technicians from the Brazilian Air Pilots Union are also invited - you may obtain their names through IFALPA.

The second investigation is carried out by the Brazilian courts, and is not intended at preventing future accidents - it is intended at assessing if there was any tort behavior or if there is evidence of negligence, malpractice or imprudence of the agents involved in the accident. It is totally independent from the first one, and can not be controlled or limited in any way by the Executive or Legislative branches of the Brazilian government.

The Brazilian Courts and Public Attorneys are totally independent, and their powers are assigned directly by the Brazilian Constitution - therefore, they are not subject to the Annex 13, since international treaties don't take precedence over the Constitution of any country.

There are the proceedings from this second investigation that are retaining the pilots in Brazil.

A Federal Police (equivalent to your FBI) officer was assigned by a Federal Judge to conduct the preliminary investigation, and he has taken 2 actions: request all information so far obtained by the team of technicians in charge of the first investigation, and call all persons involved with the accident for official hearings.

The Air Force officers in charge of the first investigation have refused to disclose their data to the officer (they know very well how theses data can be dangerous in a lawyer's hand), and the officer was forced to ask for the Federal Judge to order such disclosure - which, unfortunately, he has done.

The Federal Police officer wants to hear the US pilot after he has heard everybody else, because he wants to be better informed about the questions to make, and hence he has requested the Federal Judge to order the seizure of the passports, so the pilots will remain in Brazil for as long as necessary to hear everybody else.

There is no specific rule to apply to the seizure of the passports. (more to follow)

(Continued from the previous post due to length ...)

According to the Brazilian Law, the pilots are not captive - they are totally free to wander throughout Brazil, with no restriction at all. While I fully agree with you that they are not at all free - what they want is to return to their home, and not stay in Brazil - the Brazilian Criminal Law was never planned to apply to such specific cases.

The country's previous experience with foreigners charged of tort behavior doesn't help at all - in 2 prominent cases aliens have used their foreign passports to abscond and remain untouchable by the Brazilian authorities at their home countries. I would not expect the Federal Judge to risk his career by letting go 2 persons that, in his mind, may or may not have been responsible for an accident that has killed 154 people. Remember, the Judge is not an aviation expert, and he is probably very confused by the contradictory information appearing in the press.

As you can see, there is no involvement of the Air Force in the detention, nor is it politically motivated

I personally think that the best person that could help the pilots is the US Ambassador in Brazil. He could make a press conference, and explain what type of agreements the US and Brazil have in place for such cases. He should explain that the pilots, even in the US, will be mandated to participate in any hearing that the Brazilian authorities may demand.

He could also ask for an appointment with the Brazilian Supreme Court President, and ask her to contact the Federal Judge to demand the pilot's hearing to take place as soon as possible - she is probably the only authority that could influence the Judge's behavior.

As far as the accident itself, it is clearer and clearer that several mistakes have been made, from the pilots and from the controllers.

It also seems that the Brazilian procedures differ somewhat from the US procedures for loss of communication, what might have contributed to the fact that the pilots were flying at the wrong flight level.

In essence, this is something that should have never happened. The last controllers were heard this week, so I hope the Federal Police officer might hear the pilots in the next few weeks.

Let's hope the pilots will be able to convince the officer that they haven't turned the transponder off. If this happens, I hope the officer will report that mistakes were made, but that the pilots haven't made the fundamental one.

I am personally in favor of the immediate release of the pilots, but the general public in Brazil is not.

Changing their minds is what we need to do

There's nothing more boring than a disgruntled former employee and realgivpilot is no exception.
He is so filled with anger that we should take anything he says with a big grain of salt. In fact, he is so filled with self-hatred and emotional turmoil, I hope he considers before each 'first flight' of the day whether he is emotionally fit to fly.

As for Robert Mark's repeating the claim that 'there's no involvement of the Air Force in the pilots' detention'...gimme a break! The only salvation for the Brazilian defense department is to blame the pilots. That's why these people have been spreading lies since the day of the accident. To inflame the people and the people who represent them.

BTW, dudes, last I checked, it's not up to the general public in Brazil to decide if the pilots should be released, it's for a judge who should be immune to public opinon. Of course public opinion is already turning against the government as their lies spill out.

Sorry realgivpilot....I guess you'll have to get your jollies at someone else's expense. Stop grinding your axe with the blood of 154 innocent victims.

It seems that the American pilots are locked in their hotel room and prohibited to open their months unless they wish to be fired by the ExcelAir company as soon they land their asses in America. Joe Sharkey claims in NYT that the Brazilian society is xenophobic and the American pilots would be target by the brazilians in public places. They are even forbidden to use the hotel utilities such as swimming pool, fitness center and sauna while the ultimate customers are the foreign tourists. At this right moment they are locked in their room, they cannot leave the room 24 hours. And its been 53 days! The lawyer said it is the pilots best interest staying inside the room. They are cloistered for God sakes!! Now tell me, is this due to the brazilian public threat who would turn them into human "targets"or a strategy of ExcelAir company? The pilots isolation was published by O Estado de São Paulo yesterday's edition and also the Sharkey's comments in NYT. The brazilian lawyer declared that "the pilots have all the reasons of the world to look for privacy".Why don't ExcelAir allow the pilots speak for themselves? Are they enjoying their 5 stars cloisure? Oh yeah lets wait that the American government will be soon activated and the private and the public affairs will be confused and mixed!

Actually, I do believe the Brazilian Air Force is involved with holding of the two U.S. The one that Norm mentioned was merely something I was passing on from someone else.

Rob Mark

rob mark,

U are getting paranoic about the Brazilian Air Force officers.I do not believe you in your BELIEF that they are the ones involved in holding up the pilots.By making statements like this, you are just throwing mud on the good officers and their subalterns.Just remember U.S. military had to put up with a recaltricant Sec of Defense who mislead the entire country for almost 6 years,before being fired by the Prez.It is very easy for the pols to put the blame on the military folks in order to get the votes from the civilians.But,it is hard to maintain law and order in a logical manner.
So quit blaming the FAB and use your diplomacy to get the two boys home.

Thanks

Well you, whoever you people are, can ignore but these guys are in hell in the hands of the American "inteligence" .

Xenophobic America, always the same! That's more than counter productive that's just plain stupidity, which you have always shown to the world in real life! At least Brazilians can have a close taste of it besides watching those plastic movies you've got! Yeah, get real Brazil, lets hope we diminish consuming those s**t here.

I think that brazilian air force officers follow the international aviation rules.
The problem is the federal judge involved in this case, from the isolated mato grosso state. Probably he will run for the brazilian house of representatives next term.

I don´t know about the legal part, but the aeronautical part of Rob Mark´s info seems to be correct. The acronym is Sipaer, or at least was when I took their course in accident investigation. Those guys are really good and thoroughly professional.

What I wonder about is if the judge in question acted on his own, leaving motives out of the question for now, or if he got orders.

The crash led to the controllers´ problems, and already tourist reservations are down.

Whoa! I have to admit that I was quite taken aback by the viciousness of your attack against realgivp and rob mark - what gives? It seems pretty obvious to me that one of the two, or both, must've somehow gotten on your last nerve, although I seem to have missed exactly what the catalyst might have been. Both realgivp and rob mark, among others (RM, stephen, marcelo, etc.), had been posting stuff that was non-inflammatory, informative and designed to help make sense of the facts that have been released surrounding this tragic incident. I also think realgivp raised some bona fide issues with regard to lack of cummunication between the pilots and ATC that I'm sure the FAA and NTSB, as well as the Brazilian Air Force and ATC, are already looking into. RM raised another REALLY interesting point - what about those gaps in communication and what's being done about it?

So Norm, buddy... chill out... unless it's you with the personal axe to grind.

To Smelt - Norm? Norm? Where have you been Norm? Yes Smelt, some of these folks have a tad bit of angst betwinxt each other that has nothing to do with factual rationale discourse on what if anything can or should be done on any front. Real Giv Pee was ticked off, is ticked off, made some us who don't generally get ticked off (or at least not easily) get ticked off. Many others such as yourself chimed in to defend him (due to current thread content) or point at current or prior provocation (by others in other threads) which somehow entitled rgp to stink things up whence arrived us Simpletons and Smelts. Funny?

Rgp, Chucky Cheese and a few others might have come around - let's hope and extend that hope to Norm-a-lies.

Thanks Ralph M for praising rgp's recent good behavior. I started off blathering on what I know about BZ considerations re: HFs, VOR / DMEs, VHF comm issues, primary radars vs secondary surveilance radars, the good men in the FAB serving the Brigs. Thought better of it, decided it wasn't worth saying anything and cntrl-x'd it all. The experts will do what is necessary just fine without any of us / despite us.

Ahhh... to be a smelt on this thread is almost akin to swimming upstream.

I"ve actually been quietly sitting by, reading and following this story for no reason other than I am simply interested and because I care. I care about the fact that there were 154 lives senselessly snuffed out; I care that two American pilots are still being detained; I care most of all about finding out what really happened and why. Obviously, feelings are running extremely high and this tragedy seems to have brought out both the best and the worst in the folks who have been contributing to these threads.

Simpleton, once I quit laughing long enough to read through your post, I could clearly see that you are anything but a simpleton. Norm-a-lies??!! THAT was pretty good. I'm quite sure most of the drivel that Norm the Pilot posted was, indeed, lies. (Ooops, did I say that??!!) I am in complete and total agreement with your assessment of real gi vp (maybe he's military?) and of Ralph M, as well as your statement that rgp and others have 'come around'. I think rgp does, indeed, sound angry on several of his posts;... but what if he's justified? Reading and re-reading back over his past posts, he seems to repeat the same refrain over and over again without waivering one bit - accountability, both corporate and personal. How can anyone argue with that? I wonder also, if some of his more volatile posts weren't specifically designed to light a fire under someone's tail in order to bring focus where it needs to be?

As far as Ralph M goes, wow, he's been like a breath of fresh air - calm, knowledgeable, intelligent and reasonable. He presents an issue that seems to have been largely overlooked; i.e., that a strong, competent leader for the ATC is badly needed and RIGHT NOW. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious, but as Ralph M pointed out, the 18,000 Brazilian ATC would most like rally a leader that they had faith and trust in. Sadly, it seems as if that issue has been buried amidst the bureaucratic red tape and governmental finger pointing. Also, I, too, would also like to know what airspace communication over other South American countries is like as compared to airspace communication over the Amazon.

As far as Norm the Pilot goes... I can't really think of a gracious way to say this other than to just come right out and say that your post stinks like rotting fish. Again, maybe I missed something, but I saw no provocation directed specifically against you that would warrant such a blatant and vicious attack. The fact that I can't find any other posts authored by our buddy Norm raised a big red flag for me... it made me wonder if he didn't emerge from the woodwork specifically to let loose with that barrage of verbal hogwash. rgp and rob mark were CONTRIBUTING and you attacked them for it. Why? Ahhh... nevermind... that would be too much like swimming upstream to try to peer into the inner workings of such a small-minded, vengeful individual.

Okay... back to the woodwork and swimming upstream...

A good day to all!

Smelt

I believe Shakespeare said it in Henry IV “Do not shoot the messenger”. Before that I believe Sopocholes (sorry for the awful spelling) (to paraphrase what little of it I remember) Do not be vexed by the message given (sic). Today we know it as “Don’t kill the messenger”.

Most of us on this board and in these threads want to know what happened, why it happened, how it can be fixed so that it won’t happen again. I’ve read too many accident reports involving friends or people I knew. I do not want to read another one. I particularly am not looking forward to reading the final report on this one. This was a terrible accident and many mistakes were made for it to happen (as I explained in a previous thread). The bottom line is that 154 people lost their lives and for a matter of minutes they knew that. Certainly the pilots knew it. The problems that have arisen I feel are the result of the parallel legal investigation and the holding of the pilots. In the US the accident investigation takes place and is completed. Then any legal action is taken IF it is warranted. If there was intentional wrong doing then, as I have said, those involved should be held accountable. They are the people responsible.

I have pointed out inconsistencies in stories, problems about the communication time line and drawn a possible conclusion that leads me to believe that the pilots were sent out by excel without the proper training and that some major problems still exist within the confines of the Brazilian ATC system. Because of this I am being attacked personally, having lies told about me, threatened and now being painted as some out of control nut job. Sorry it won’t wash. I believe some people “doth protest too much”.

I have made no claims of wild aerobatics or maneuvers, CIA involvement, the military did it or that a scapegoat is needed, etc. Instead I have looked at the facts (NTSB report and Legacy flight plan, as well as my own, personal documentation, among other things) and tried to draw a logical conclusion based solely on the facts. And I feel not only I want these things looked at, but everyone who wants to find out exactly what happened. That way we can fix any and all problems to ensure it won’t happen again. This should have never happened in the first place. If there is real criminal negligence, then those people should be held accountable and responsible.